In these three videos, a Muslim Cleric [converted to Christianity in '88] explains why there is/isn’t a true trinity. His explanation says that the number 3 is the number of ‘witness’, and it is to be understood in the right manner…a very unique way to explain the diatribe that has existed for just over 1700 years.
Listen and then lets discuss his take on the subject. After all, Gnostics have used this theology to disrubt the church for centuries. They even used it in deciding why to kill over 10 million Jesus Name Christians, but that lends to another subject..Please keep it civil, clean, and present yourself properly and we’ll have a great discussion.
11 Comments
October 1, 2008 at 7:25 pm
lanis,
As I have told you, this man is a priest in the Eastern Orthodox Church. They are very Trinitarian! His understanding of the Trinity is from this/ his culture somewhat, and he uses ideas and terms from such. If you had a better historical understanding of the “autocephalous” nature of this Church, you perhaps might understand better? At present you are misunderstanding him and his Trinitarian theology.
Fr. Robert
October 1, 2008 at 7:30 pm
lanis,
Here is a site I sent also to Joel. It hammers hard your Oneness position. Can you make a reply..line to line?
http://www.christiandefense.org/oneness.htm
Fr. Robert
October 2, 2008 at 8:22 am
Robert, I am down with serious back pain. I was cutting/splitting firewood and really did a number on my back. I can’t get online but for a moment. Will get better and hopefully chat later.
October 2, 2008 at 10:21 am
lanis,
Sorry to hear that mate. I too know a bit about back pain. I have had back surgery several years ago (lumbar). I had made a very hard parachute landing with full combat gear, when I was a Royal Marine (early 90’s, and I was in my early 40’s at the time, so I was near to quit anyway). In fact, that ended my career. So I live with the old chronic back pain myself. Get better..
Fr. Robert
October 2, 2008 at 1:37 pm
I read some of the link you provided; the author clearly has no handle on what we believe. For instance, it was stated we don’t believe Matt. 28:19 is a true baptismal formula. Not true, we strongly believe it is as Matthew proved himself as being one of the 120 in the upper room.
He was filled with the Holy Ghost and spoke in tongues as they all did, he was present when Peter told those that were pricked in their hearts with the message containing the salvation plan. Matthew was filled with the Holy Ghost, spoke in tongues as the Spirit gave the utterance, and was baptised in the name of Jesus Christ, which is the name of the Father, Son, Holy Ghost as they are one.
As to Botros, I don’t really care what he is, it is his direct explanation that Jesus Christ is God and, that the only trinity in scripture is the three manifestations of God, but He is One God. I have listened over and over, and I fail to see he is true Eastern Orthodox; it is part of his culture to wear robes..it just happens to favor the E.O. I see it as just the opposite from Islam in which he ministers to.
October 2, 2008 at 4:37 pm
lanis,
As to Matt. 28:19, the text follows the very earliest so-called Church Fathers theology and practice in Trinitarian Baptism, as was given as the text indicates: “baptizing them in the NAME (singular) of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit.” If language, grammar and syntax mean anything, then we simply cannot say that baptism in Jesus name is the same thing, and that Jesus is all three! Blog space will not allow, but I could run up scripture text, after scripture text that negates this…I will give but one: “Grace be with you, mercy, and peace, from God the Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of the Father, in truth and love.” (2 John 3) Again, I say note the article “the”! Here, as in almost every NT Letter, the address is to the Church, from God “the” Father, and “the” Lord Jesus! Two divine persons! And since the Holy Spirit has been sent to dwell in the Body of the Church, HE lives within us. So in reality, every such address is Trinitarian! (See also, Titus 3:4-6…here is the theology of the baptismal Trinitarian formula. As also 1 Peter 1:2!)
And as I asked Joel (but no reply yet?)…Who is God in eternity? If He is just a monad-single.
No my friend, this apologetic book towards your Oneness doctrine, has put some very serious holes, and drawn out some real questions! And I have not seen a direct answer yet!
Again, as to the Orthodox priest, since he is Arabic (I think?) But certainly an eastern man and person, his comments will reflect both his former Islamic life, and his understanding in that culture. And I am very familiar with Eastern Orthodoxy myself. But one must know that there are many ethnic strains with the Orthodox Church. I too saw and heard the video’s, and though there are no doubt some culture elements, the essence is certainly Eastern Orthodox as to the Trinity of God!
Finally, we Trinitarians believe as is the biblical witness, that God became Man in Christ! But the Incarnation is fully Trinitarian: the Father sending the Son (in both time and eternity), and the Holy Spirit sanctifying both the virgin birth (and Mary’s conception…also Her too for Christ), and the death and resurrection of Christ – 1 Peter 1:2 / Heb. 9:14 / 1 Peter 3:18.
Fr. Robert
October 5, 2008 at 8:08 am
Doing better, but still can’t sit long at a time. God’s grace is sufficient.
Robert, it wont do either of us an good to ’saddle a sweaty horse’ and try to ride it. You and I are inchangeable.
In your reply, you say the baptism of the birth of the church is incorrect, I say that is blatantly denying the facts to hold your views above the written Word. God made a covenant in the O.T. and they took his rules/precepts and interpreted them and kept interpreting until even God viewed them as generations of vipers and denounced their hyprocrisy when He came as a man. It was in the N. T. He set the second covenant into motion and you are denying and re-writing the rules/precepts just as they did. It is God’s design for us to follow the leading of the Spirit [John 14:26, 16:13 KJV] and was never left to man to interpret the scripture, Peter says it is of no private interpretation. [2Peter 1:21]
For the sake of knowing what we ‘Oneness’ believe; use our belief privately in your office, and see if you can understand us better. Take the scripture you quoted above and apply them as speaking of one God, but in three dispensations of works for mankind. Creator, Deliverer, Savior. In God’s mental/timeless wisdom, there is no separation in those works. He had one plan for the world. He views it as one work and that is why they spoke as they did. If you can do that, also remember right then, God’s wisdom is well above man and we can’t even come close to figuring Him out unless He reveals it to us. That is how we have come to our knowledge/wisdom of the written Word. We need no other creed/theology/council/or smart person to decipher for us.
October 5, 2008 at 12:19 pm
lanis,
I am not sure what ya first mean’in is? Save I am a hardhead Irishman, and you are perhaps the same in nature & character? lol We are both what they call babyboomers also.
But I am also something of the historican & scholar, at least in method. And nothing God has given escapes the historical. As God ordered and is sovereign over all! (Rom. 11:36)
As I mentioned the apologetic book towards the Oneness doctrine is very devastating theologically! And as far back as Tertullian (second century) the Modalist position has been attacked as serious error (Monarchianism). His (Tertullian’s) work ‘Against Praxeas’ (Adversus Pradxean). A theological movement in the 2nd and 3rd century’s. In its attempt to safeguard Monotheism and the unity (Monarchy) of the Godhead, the movement became heretical, as it failed to do justice to the independent subsistence of the Son. And sadly this is still true today with the Oneness position. As I said, who really is God, if He is but a single monad? (See the Greek idea of Monad. But even Plato knew that God was the ultimate and indivisible unit. Great truth even for a pagan!) The very idea that God simply manifests himself as three “dispensations,” is in reality more of a pagan idea. But that God is One in the Triune reality (Eternal Unity), is really the revelation of both Scripture and the Church…the Mystical Body of Christ!
Most historical Christians are Trinitarian, this is just fact. And both the history and theology of the Church, East and West stands on this central dogma!
The study of so-called Christian Fundamentalism also bears upon this, since many even there see the doctrine of the Trinity of God as biblical and central.
Finally, the Trinitarian doctrine of God…One God in Trinity, and Trinity in Unity; neither confounding the Persons, nor dividing the Substance; still simply but profoundly states this great mystery. And I feel I am the one standing on the Apostles doctrine and faith! And as faith it is: “the name (singular) of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit.” (Matt.28:19) The One Triune God! Man cannot figure this out for certain!
Fr. Robert
October 5, 2008 at 1:23 pm
lanis,
I said Baptism was always Trinitarian! The teaching & theology of the NT Letters proves this. As I quoted, and will quote yet again…1 Pet.1:2 ; Tit.3: 4-6. To quote just a few! Both economic but most important an ontological reality in God’s unity and character. There can be no economy of God without also HIS own ontology: being & substance!
On Acts 2:38, Calvin himself wrote: “I maintain that Peter is not speaking in this passage of the form of baptism but simply declaring that the whole efficacy of baptism is contained in Christ; although Christ cannot be grasped by faith without the Father by whom he was given and the Spirit by whom he renews and sanctifies us.”
Calvin knew that the Greek prepositions in the book of Acts as to the doctrine of baptism support the reality of Christ being the one in authority and sovereign in the command to baptise, rather than the formula, etc. And we also note that the Gentiles were not regenerated by the water, as they were filled (made regenerate) with and by the Holy Spirit even before the action of baptism. (Acts 10:44…etc.) “And he (Peter) ordered them to be baptized in (by the authority of) the name of Jesus Christ..” (verse 48)
Fr. Robert
October 6, 2008 at 10:57 am
lanis,
Hope you are feeling better mate? The thing is too, with us Trinitarians, we have the best of both Oneness and the Unity of God. For us, as the Scripture, God is not just an economy of three, but an eternal ontology of Triune being! (Rev.1:8 /4:8)
Have a good day!
Fr. Robert
October 6, 2008 at 6:27 pm
Thanks for the well wishes, I am mending slowly but have a ways to go to be normal again.
[Quote] “As to Matt. 28:19, the text follows the very earliest so-called Church Fathers” [end quote].
Robert, had you stopped the sentence where I just did, and had you embraced Acts 2:38 as scripturally sound as is Matt. 28:19, then we could have continued the discussion. What you did, however, was omit these two scripture for their express content and moved to YOUR founding fathers for your truth. That, to me, is saying the bible doesn’t know what its talking about and your early Gnostics had to figure it out for everyone. Robert! that is a ridiculas frame of mind. The bible is the infallable word of God; it cannot be overlooked as final authority. Mere man, regardless of mental status can’t out think God! God gave it just as it is now [in the whole of content] and no man has the right to re-write any jot or tittle.
As I stated before, you and I have no discussion as you blatantly refuse to believe scripture as factual and precise. But, I thank you for the visit.