Robert, had you stopped the sentence where I just did, and had you embraced Acts 2:38 as scripturally sound as is Matt. 28:19, then we could have continued the discussion. What you did, however, was omit these two scripture for their express content and moved to YOUR founding fathers for your truth. That, to me, is saying the bible doesn’t know what its talking about and your early Gnostics had to figure it out for everyone. Robert! that is a ridiculas frame of mind. The bible is the infallable word of God; it cannot be overlooked as final authority. Mere man, regardless of mental status can’t out think God! God gave it just as it is now [in the whole of content] and no man has the right to re-write any jot or tittle.

As I stated before, you and I have no discussion as you blatantly refuse to believe scripture as factual and precise. But, I thank you for the visit.

Hope you are feeling better mate? The thing is too, with us Trinitarians, we have the best of both Oneness and the Unity of God. For us, as the Scripture, God is not just an economy of three, but an eternal ontology of Triune being! (Rev.1:8 /4:8)

Have a good day!

Fr. Robert

I said Baptism was always Trinitarian! The teaching & theology of the NT Letters proves this. As I quoted, and will quote yet again…1 Pet.1:2 ; Tit.3: 4-6. To quote just a few! Both economic but most important an ontological reality in God’s unity and character. There can be no economy of God without also HIS own ontology: being & substance!

On Acts 2:38, Calvin himself wrote: “I maintain that Peter is not speaking in this passage of the form of baptism but simply declaring that the whole efficacy of baptism is contained in Christ; although Christ cannot be grasped by faith without the Father by whom he was given and the Spirit by whom he renews and sanctifies us.”

Calvin knew that the Greek prepositions in the book of Acts as to the doctrine of baptism support the reality of Christ being the one in authority and sovereign in the command to baptise, rather than the formula, etc. And we also note that the Gentiles were not regenerated by the water, as they were filled (made regenerate) with and by the Holy Spirit even before the action of baptism. (Acts 10:44…etc.) “And he (Peter) ordered them to be baptized in (by the authority of) the name of Jesus Christ..” (verse 48)

Fr. Robert

I am not sure what ya first mean’in is? Save I am a hardhead Irishman, and you are perhaps the same in nature & character? lol We are both what they call babyboomers also.

But I am also something of the historican & scholar, at least in method. And nothing God has given escapes the historical. As God ordered and is sovereign over all! (Rom. 11:36)

As I mentioned the apologetic book towards the Oneness doctrine is very devastating theologically! And as far back as Tertullian (second century) the Modalist position has been attacked as serious error (Monarchianism). His (Tertullian’s) work ‘Against Praxeas’ (Adversus Pradxean). A theological movement in the 2nd and 3rd century’s. In its attempt to safeguard Monotheism and the unity (Monarchy) of the Godhead, the movement became heretical, as it failed to do justice to the independent subsistence of the Son. And sadly this is still true today with the Oneness position. As I said, who really is God, if He is but a single monad? (See the Greek idea of Monad. But even Plato knew that God was the ultimate and indivisible unit. Great truth even for a pagan!) The very idea that God simply manifests himself as three “dispensations,” is in reality more of a pagan idea. But that God is One in the Triune reality (Eternal Unity), is really the revelation of both Scripture and the Church…the Mystical Body of Christ!

Most historical Christians are Trinitarian, this is just fact. And both the history and theology of the Church, East and West stands on this central dogma!

The study of so-called Christian Fundamentalism also bears upon this, since many even there see the doctrine of the Trinity of God as biblical and central.

Finally, the Trinitarian doctrine of God…One God in Trinity, and Trinity in Unity; neither confounding the Persons, nor dividing the Substance; still simply but profoundly states this great mystery. And I feel I am the one standing on the Apostles doctrine and faith! And as faith it is: “the name (singular) of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit.” (Matt.28:19) The One Triune God! Man cannot figure this out for certain!

Fr. Robert

Robert, it wont do either of us an good to ’saddle a sweaty horse’ and try to ride it. You and I are inchangeable.

In your reply, you say the baptism of the birth of the church is incorrect, I say that is blatantly denying the facts to hold your views above the written Word. God made a covenant in the O.T. and they took his rules/precepts and interpreted them and kept interpreting until even God viewed them as generations of vipers and denounced their hyprocrisy when He came as a man. It was in the N. T. He set the second covenant into motion and you are denying and re-writing the rules/precepts just as they did. It is God’s design for us to follow the leading of the Spirit [John 14:26, 16:13 KJV] and was never left to man to interpret the scripture, Peter says it is of no private interpretation. [2Peter 1:21]

For the sake of knowing what we ‘Oneness’ believe; use our belief privately in your office, and see if you can understand us better. Take the scripture you quoted above and apply them as speaking of one God, but in three dispensations of works for mankind. Creator, Deliverer, Savior. In God’s mental/timeless wisdom, there is no separation in those works. He had one plan for the world. He views it as one work and that is why they spoke as they did. If you can do that, also remember right then, God’s wisdom is well above man and we can’t even come close to figuring Him out unless He reveals it to us. That is how we have come to our knowledge/wisdom of the written Word. We need no other creed/theology/council/or smart person to decipher for us.

As to Matt. 28:19, the text follows the very earliest so-called Church Fathers theology and practice in Trinitarian Baptism, as was given as the text indicates: “baptizing them in the NAME (singular) of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit.” If language, grammar and syntax mean anything, then we simply cannot say that baptism in Jesus name is the same thing, and that Jesus is all three! Blog space will not allow, but I could run up scripture text, after scripture text that negates this…I will give but one: “Grace be with you, mercy, and peace, from God the Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of the Father, in truth and love.” (2 John 3) Again, I say note the article “the”! Here, as in almost every NT Letter, the address is to the Church, from God “the” Father, and “the” Lord Jesus! Two divine persons! And since the Holy Spirit has been sent to dwell in the Body of the Church, HE lives within us. So in reality, every such address is Trinitarian! (See also, Titus 3:4-6…here is the theology of the baptismal Trinitarian formula. As also 1 Peter 1:2!)

And as I asked Joel (but no reply yet?)…Who is God in eternity? If He is just a monad-single.

No my friend, this apologetic book towards your Oneness doctrine, has put some very serious holes, and drawn out some real questions! And I have not seen a direct answer yet!

Again, as to the Orthodox priest, since he is Arabic (I think?) But certainly an eastern man and person, his comments will reflect both his former Islamic life, and his understanding in that culture. And I am very familiar with Eastern Orthodoxy myself. But one must know that there are many ethnic strains with the Orthodox Church. I too saw and heard the video’s, and though there are no doubt some culture elements, the essence is certainly Eastern Orthodox as to the Trinity of God!

Finally, we Trinitarians believe as is the biblical witness, that God became Man in Christ! But the Incarnation is fully Trinitarian: the Father sending the Son (in both time and eternity), and the Holy Spirit sanctifying both the virgin birth (and Mary’s conception…also Her too for Christ), and the death and resurrection of Christ – 1 Peter 1:2 / Heb. 9:14 / 1 Peter 3:18.

Fr. Robert

Fr. Robert

Fr. Robert

Fr. Robert

The Jesuit conspiracy is one that has been taught since the beginning of ‘Protestantism’. They are indeed a formidable host, but they are merely a group of scholars now with seminaries instead of swords.

Speaking in tongues has been recognized on the historical scene since the mid-1700’s when the Wesleyans (who were not Catholic) had their camp meetings in the United States, but that in way means that they are false. Any one can imitate a saint of God. After all, miracles are performed in the name of our God, but they performed by the adversary.

Speaking in tongues is no guarantee of truth, or loving the truth. Catholic priest Matthew Fox told years ago that the phenomenon of glossalalia would be the point in common to be used to bring about the great ecuminical revival under Roman Catholicism. Many TBN charismatic preachers are on record calling the church to come under Roman authority. Traitors to the truth.

Read Alexander Hislop’s “The Two Babylons” & Charles Chiniquy’s “Fifty Years in the Church of Rome”

The split in 1948 between the Assemblies of God and what became the off shoot called UPCI was over the issue of baptism in Jesus name. So after all these years, you would think that He would have corrected the Oneness bunch, don’t you think? Jesus is Lord! And thank God, I don’t have to go to three different ones to find the right one for my needs!